West Cocoa Chat

thanks...I think the one thing we must do is not hide our heads in the sand but realize the potential of action from people who HATE us!
 

Ditto Donna.
 

I am always amazed at the response of people to this type of presentation. If the speaker, regardless of his credentials and experience, happens to challenge someone's political correctness or party agenda, that person is to be disregarded. I read a book by a former air force general in Saddam's military and he gave the facts regarding WMDs and how they were removed from the country ... completely ignored by the American media because it would be contrary to the "Bush lied / people died" mantra of the left.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

ISCZ - I make it a standard practice to delete any comment from someone who does not have an active blog. I believe the beauty of blogging is that we get to learn a little bit about each other by reading each other's blogs. When someone comments with no active blog, in my mind it’s tantamount to being anonymous.

If I misjudged you and you do have an active blog please comment again and give us your address. Opposing opinions are welcomed here but you must “step out from around the curtain” as those of us who do blog do every day. Thanks.
 

West Cocoa:

This is a good policy, actually. I don't have a blog at present, but do run two websites. Most pertinent to this topic is the one that challenges the ideology of Christian Zionism where articles about Shoebat have appeared. It is the official website of the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism which brings together scholars and pastors and at least one Rabbi who are concerned about the very kinds of things Shoebat promotes. The link is here:

http://www.christianzionism.org.
 

ISCZ - Welcome back. Thank you for your graciousness. I’ll check out the site.
 

ISCZ - I probably should have stated this in my post but I nor my church are "pre-Millennial. I believe he and many others of the Christian World are but we are not. If I extrapolate the term you use, “Christian Zionism,” it seems that this belief would depend on one being pre-millennial on their view of the Book of Revelation with respect to present day Israel. In our movement we tend to reject this view.

Nevertheless, I do stand by the warnings Shoebat makes with respect to the threat of Islamic Extremists and our country. One need only point to the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania to validate this concern.
 

I am always concerned when our stimulus for action and thought is fear.
 

Brady - Good to see you again. I wish I could leave comments on your blog brother but I am reading.

I don't think "fear" was the overall reaction of our church after hearing Shoebat speak. I think lack of knowledge or denial of same will initially be met with fear when new knowledge is imparted. I think you see "fear" in the Disciples reaction when Jesus tells and reminds them that he will be "going" in a short while.

I think for our church and for Christians throughout time, whatever stage you go through first must then be filtered by our knowledge, activity, and indwelling of Christ in our lives.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

I believe he is right...I believe we as Christians are trying to be political correct and accepting of all others..we are one throwing our relationship with Christ under the bus and we are not standing up for what I Feel Christ would want us to. It is like...someone has an affair, but the world say, "if they are happy, that should be okay"..but what about the wife & the kids...what about it being Biblical wrong?
Islamics or the Muslim religion do not believe that Jesus is the son of God. Personally, I feel that is one of my foundations of my faith that I can not waver. We need to reach these people to Christ. We must be aware that they need salvation.

The other aspect...terriorist amongst us. Personally..I believed this before the speaker spoke. If we think there is not, we are fools.

Okay...I guess I have said enough.
 

ISCZ - As Clint Eastwood said quite often when one of his soldiers missed the point in the movie, "Heartbreak Ridge," "Negative Marine." We play a video (including the day Shoebat spoke) before every worship service at our church that states 2 convictions we hold as truths at our church:

1. We will never display a "holier than thou" attitude for we are all broken people being put back together by the love of God.

2. We believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God. He was born of a virgin, lived, died, and rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God. We will not back off that message, candy-coat, or change it.

Having said those 2 things I need to ask you something and I'm truly not trying to be sarcastic - rather I'm seeking information to try and understand where you're coming from -

Do you affirm #1 and 2 personally in your life?

Respectfully, if you do not then we'll probably never agree.
 

lauramay - well said.
 

ISCZ - "So Christians have never advocated killing their enemies? If so why were American Christians applauding the unprovoked attack on Iraq?"

I haven't met an American Christian who has ever "applauded" any act of war. It is very American to support our President when ever he deems it necessary to use our Armed Forces in the protection of our country.

Further, it was always made clear that military operations in Iraq were never directed at the Iraqis people but rather at the evil / Stalin like regime of Saddam Hussein. His brutality against his own people is even video documented from the time he had members of his own Parliament dragged out in front of other Parliament members and shot within earshot of everyone in the chamber. This list of acts of violence against his fellow Muslims is well documented.

For you to insinuate that the brave men and women of our Armed Forces were responsible for the deaths of a “million Iraqis” is utterly absurd.
 

Laura May,

I appreciate the tone of your response as too often on blogs people prefer simply to rant.

I am a born again Christian who have committed my life to witnessing to the saving love of Jesus Christ to our Muslim neighbors. One of the greatest privileges in my life has been discipling Muslims. I baptized several new believers when I was a missionary in the Middle East. There is nothing that has brought me more joy.

This is exactly why I challenge the poisonous invective of people like Shoebat who, rather than encouraging people to share Christ's love with our neighbors, teach us to be suspicious of them. Promoting the lie, for instance, that Muslims believe that it is alright to lie (thus all Muslims are liars) creates an incredible amount of suspicion that makes it impossible to develop proper relationships with your Muslim neighbors. And how interesting that a Christian promotes a lie to give Christians the idea that Muslim lie.

A Muslim friend of mine, by the way, heard that people like Shoebat were promoting this and he was deeply offended. "Why do they hate us so?" he said.

My experience in the States is that very few Christians are doing anything at all to reach out with friendship love to our Muslim neighbors. And a big reason is the kind of hateful rhetoric coming from this so-called "former terrorist" (which is also a lie), Walid Shoebat.

How can we share Christ's love with people we have been taught to hate?
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

ISCZ - ISCZ – Your tone has become too accusatory and antagonistic, especially towards our men and women in our Armed Forces. We have many members in our church who are either veterans or are on active duty. Some of them have served in both Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for the protection of not only our Country but the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.
 

I do not believe we should hate anyone...we should pray for our ememies and share Christ with those that need him.
I know some people do hate...mostly because they were hurt or they are afraid...but those feelings are real. Christ can help us over come our hurts and our fears...but most of the time we are too proud to ask God for our help.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

Cecil, thanks for posting (as much as you felt possible) both sides of this argument. I've learned a lot from everybody who contributed. Above all, thanks be to God that we can disagree in love.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

ISCZ - In this blog community we do not ridicule each other. We can convey our points in love without sarcasm. The past couple of days on this blog I think have made some things clear:

1. You are passionate about this subject.

2. You apparently have issue with Shoebat.

3. We will not change each other’s minds.

4. You feel that you’re right.

5. I feel that I'm right.

6. You’re convinced that our having Shoebat speak was a mistake.

7. I’m convinced that we were right.

I would like to move on from here. You’re welcome to comment on any future posts on this blogs just remember:

1. Be nice.
2. At times, try to be funny.
3. Don’t take yourself serious all the time.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

ISCZ - You're having a hard time with laying off the personal attacks.

For example, if I played by your rules I might write, "You should know better being so negative and sarcastic if you're a Pastor."

There is no reason for that kind of attack. With every cutting comment you make it serves to convince me that what Shoebat said was true and needing to be heard.

If you care to comment further try it without being cutting. Diversity of thought is always welcomed without condemnation or rudeness.
 

I'll try one more time as I believe you are confusing criticism with sarcasm.

The previous posts you deleted noted without sarcasm that Walid Shoebat has falsified his biography by inventing a terrorist past he doesn't have. This is well attested. What you noted about his comments also need to be challenged, particularly what he says about Muslims "encouraging their men to marry American Christian women." This is not true.

My comments about your own attitudes towards these distortions are to register surprise that you would not be disturbed by this, as well, both on the basis of your intelligence as a teacher and on the basis of your commitment as a disciple of Jesus Christ. These were, in fact, compliments (OK, backhanded compliments) but compliments nonetheless as it recognizes that your are an intelligent committed Christian. I would, in fact, be writing this much differently if it was clear that you were not so.

So here is my question: does this not disturb you - to know that Shoebat is perpetuating negative stereotypes about your Muslim neighbors. I will be surprised if your answer is: "no" because I do believe you are an intelligent, compassionate fellow Christian.
 

ISCZ - That's better and welcome back to the program. To answer your question -

The answer would be "yes" if I felt he was painting a description of all Muslims. I think most folks at our church took his comments and warnings to be referencing the same Islamic Extremists who flew jets into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania after being thwarted by the Heroes on that Jet.

Perhaps what I should have focused on is the obvious difference between Christians and Muslims – the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I'll apologize for being a poor communicator in my initial post with respect to what I think you took as my lumping all Muslims in one batch.

As Brian Piccolo allegedly said to Gale Sayers in the movie, “Brian’s Song,” “We have to quit meeting like this.” :)
 

I appreciate this, West Cocoa, as it allows for a thoughtful discussion. Do forgive me for being more intense than I should have been and making insinuations that were not merited. This is a very important issue to me and I do have trouble giving balanced answers.

First, let me let you know a little bit about me. I was, as I said, a missionary in the Middle East. This started with a two year volunteer stint in Bahrain right out of college where I taught English to Arab students at a school begun by our mission in 1892. That began a life calling that led to a year in Cairo where I studied Arabic, Christian-Muslim relations and Islamics (as well as teaching English to Coptic Orthodox monks in the oldest continuously occupied monastery in the world). From 1986-96 I served three different international congregations (in churches built on land donated to the church by the Muslim governments in these countries) in Bahrain and Oman. From 2001-2006 I was the director of our denominational mission program in the Middle East and South Asia which had me making numerous trips to Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, the Arabian Gulf and at least one trip to Syria.
Right now I'm in the third year of a PhD program in World Christianity and Global Mission with a focus on Christian-Muslim relations. My dissertation will be an examination of the experience of the first American missionaries to Palestine (1819).

The point is, I have been dealing with the issue of Christian-Muslim relations for most of my life and have also spent a lot of time helping Christians gain a better, more informed understanding of their Muslim neighbors. I currently run a website for our church on this issue. You can access it here: www.rca.org/islam.

I'll return later to continue this discussion on a less intense basis.
 

ISCZ - Sounds good. Take care and God bless.
 

cwinwc,

As a teacher you know how important it is to make sure that the information you pass on to your students is based on the best resources reflecting the truth as much as possible. If, for instance, someone brought in material that proved that the holocaust never happened you would not use it; or that Jesus was simply a myth invented by the early church. In both cases you would help your students realize that this material was bogus.

My issue with Walid is that people are taking what he says on face value because: A) he is an Arab (assuming here that all Arabs know Islam, which is no more the case than all Americans know Christianity) B) he is a former Muslim (again an assumption that needs challenging as there are numerous Christian converts to Islam who know very little about the Christianity they have left behind). Yet, as a good teacher I would think that you would want to check into the material Walid is passing on to see if it has any validity. In this case not only can he be challenged on his information about Islam, but what he says about his own background in "Islamic terrorism." Here are the primary issues (which if you are willing I will take up one by one):

1. Walid claims to have been an "Islamic terrorist" when he was with the PLO. But Walid immigrated to the States in the 60s or 70s at a time when Islamic fundamentalism was not at all a part of the conflict in Israel/Palestine. The PLO was, in fact, at that time a secular organization, with a fairly large Christian representation. In fact, the most extreme wing of the PLO was headed up by George Habash - a Communist who was raised Christian. An Anglican woman, Hanan Ashrawi, was a spokesperson for the PLO during that time. In this case Shoebat is showing that he isn't even conversant with his own history. Actually, what he's doing is playing on people's ignorance and fear of Islamists as he knows very few people will take the time to check this out.

This alone should make you question anything else he has to say. It certainly would in any other case - i.e. - if someone came to speak at your school on Abraham Lincoln claiming to be his great, great, great grandson (thus giving him an insiders' knowledge) when in fact the closest his relatives ever got to Lincoln was visiting Springfield.
 

One more cwincw,

I was interested in your comment that you realized that what should be most critical here is the difference between Muslims and Christians:

"Perhaps what I should have focused on is the obvious difference between Christians and Muslims – the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

If this were, in fact, the focus of Shoebat's talks there would be no problem whatsoever, as many thoughtful evangelical spokespersons (including myself)point this out as the critical difference that cannot be glossed over in any Christian-Muslim encounter. But to make the leap from this to assuming that Muslims have implanted themselves as a conspiratorial anti-American force within our society who must be looked upon with great suspicion and even antagonism as though their failure to believe what we believe naturally and normally makes them our enemies is the stretch that needs to be challenged.

The issue here has to do with how we relate to people of other faiths who are in every sense of the word our neighbors. Jews reject Jesus' sonship, as well. Are we to assume that they are naturally our enemies because of that? How about Buddhists or Hindus or even worse, the many agnostics and atheists who live among us. Do you look at your non-Christian students as people who are naturally antagonistic to you?

Note that this in no way challenges the one thing Shoebat does get right - that there are extremists in the Muslim community who do harbor deep seated anger. But to say that this is because they don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God is to suggest that anyone who has that belief should be suspect.

Note Jesus' relationship to Samaritans. That's the best biblical parallel to how I believe we should be approaching our Muslim neighbors, very few of whom exhibit the tendencies Shoebat wants to attribute to many.
 

ISCZ - This is an interesting conversation but if I must say, you're practicing the old "firemen technique" of "surround and drown." :)

You have a plethora of information that taking me too long to read and assimilate. Chalk it up on my end to being 50, teaching Middle School kids for 28 years, and being an “unpaid full time employee” at our church if you will.

O.K., here is recent comment:
“The previous posts you deleted noted without sarcasm that Walid Shoebat has falsified his biography by inventing a terrorist past he doesn't have. This is well attested. What you noted about his comments also need to be challenged, particularly what he says about Muslims "encouraging their men to marry American Christian women." This is not true.”

My responses –
You state that Shoebat’s biography is “falsified” and “this is well attested.” I did what every child or in my case, late comer to the Internet does – I goggled his name. There are many website supporting his story as well as many who believe as you do, that he is a fraud.

I liken this situation to some of the divorces that I’ve dealt with. There are almost always 2 divergent sides to a marital breakup. I’ve had folks show me phone records in an attempt to show the other party initiated an affair. In the end nobody really knows for sure who is the fraud other than the parties themselves and God. What you feel is well attested in your eyes may not be to the next guy.

BTW – I’m willing to say that there exists the possibility that you’re 100 percent right about Shoebat. Then again, in my line of “work” if you will as in shepherding a church, I believe it is dangerous to not always have some doubt as to my own abilities to discern when I’m limited as to the depth of the information. I don’t let that paralyze me in making decisions but I think it is healthy to keep that lack of infallibility in the back of mind.

As to your comment concerning, “Muslims "encouraging their men to marry American Christian women” / “ This is not true,” I have personal experience in this area to say that it can be true.

At one time our local Community College as well as a local 4-year University had a very active international student exchange program. Many of the students were Islamic being (were talking late 70’s / early 80’s) from the Middle East. Many of them had American girlfriends that ended up being wives. I’m not saying that was a bad in of itself but it did happen. Interesting enough were all the Islamic Exchange students were males which means I have no empirical data to test who Shoebat stated concerning Islamic women being forbidden to marry western men.

It seems that each side of this issue has 2 sides depending on the baggage we bring to the discussion and there is no doubt that all of us have pre-conceptions when it comes to certain issues and even Scripture.

BTW – I thought you made a great point when it comes to Jesus, the Samaritans, and how we are to live and minister to all of our neighbors even if they are not Christians.

You’re spurring me to thought and re-examination and that is always good.
 

Hi, WCC,

Just a quick one while I watch "The Mentalist" - my favorite new show.

I believe you missed my point about Muslim men marrying American women. Here's the example you gave:

At one time our local Community College as well as a local 4-year University had a very active international student exchange program. Many of the students were Islamic being (were talking late 70’s / early 80’s) from the Middle East. Many of them had American girlfriends that ended up being wives. I’m not saying that was a bad in of itself but it did happen.

My point was not that it didn't happen, my point was that Shoebat's contention that it happens as some sort of Muslim attempt to corrupt American women is pure and unequivocal nonsense. In point of fact Muslim students who come here to study from other countries do as all other young men do - they meet attractive young women, are attracted to them and sometimes marry them. In most cases this would be against the will of their parents who, like Christian parents, would much prefer that their children marry within the faith. But it happens.

This, actually, underscores one of my biggest issues with Shoebat. If you add up all that he says about Muslims (even though he qualifies this by saying that he is speaking of "fundamentalist Muslims") the impression given is that Muslims are among us as a sort of hidden subversive body doing all they can to undermine American society. Not all fit this, of course, but since Muslims lie as a matter of course you can never tell who they are, so you need to suspect all of them. So a Muslim man wishing to marry a Christian woman isn't simply a case of a young man (like every other young man) falling in love and marrying a women to whom he is attracted, its a plot.

Having grown up - as you grew up (I'm 54) - in the 60s I think you can see what's happening here. It's putting a new face on the old Communist plot.

Interesting thing about human nature - we somehow seem to need a scapegoat upon which to cast our own worst selves, someone to fill the role of "bad guy" to make us feel right and righteous.
 

One day a man was walking through the park when a mugger jumped out and nearly beat him to death. An evangelical pastor saw him lying there, but was late for an appointment, so decided he couldn't stop. A little while later a youth group leader came down the same path. He too was late for an appointment, figuring that he could send someone back to help when he got there.

A short time later a young Muslim man came down the path, saw the man and immediately did what he could to help him. He called an ambulance, followed him to the hospital to make sure he was OK, then paid the bill ahead of time.

Most of the Muslims I have met in the years I spent in the Middle East and here in Chicago, as well, have the traits of this good Muslim. Unfortunately all are suspect in the eyes of Shoebat and those who have been taken in by his rhetoric.
 

I have enjoyed the “back and forth” dialog on this subject, with points made by all along the way. As a way of introduction, I am a 48 year old, current NASA civil servant, retired Florida Air National Guard, with 12 years of active service in the United States Air Force. From October, 1994 thru April, 1995 I had the distinct pleasure to serve my country in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. As my service dates would indicate, my tour spanned the timeframe that most American’s celebrate the “Pilgrim’s rescue by Native American Indians” called Thanksgiving, and “The celebration of Jesus’ birth” commonly referred as Christmas.
As some of you may (or may not) know, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia practices a “fundamentalist” form of Islam, commonly referred to as Wahhabi. This particular sect supports strict and uncompromising societal obedience to Shariah Law with Mutawa religious police as one of their society’s enforcement tools.
As a “guest” of the Kingdom, we non-Muslim’s were expected to adopt local codes of behavior and dress when in the public domain (abaya, head cover, no makeup, no driving for women; long sleeve shirts, long pants for men). We were also allowed to attend the famous “Chop, Chop” square, where the barbaric custom of public beheadings frequently occur over a brass grated drain. We had it on good word that thieving hands were surgically removed in the local hospital under anesthesia.
My experiences could fill volumes, but to keep this posting on point, I just wanted share with the reading public that this predominately hostile form of Islam is not tolerant of any non-Muslim (i.e. Christian, Hindu, Jewish) views, and is barely tolerant of less radical Islamic faiths. You are free to practice religion, as long as it is on THEIR terms.
Food for thought as we struggle to find common, loving, turn-the-other-cheek, ground that MY LORD and SAVIOR demonstrated and commanded of his sheep!

Michael
 

Michael,

Thanks for sharing. I spent twelve years in Bahrain and Oman, Bahrain being, as you know, just across the causeway from Saudi. On two different occasions I came to Saudi to speak to the mostly American congregations in two of the oil camps.

Just to help balance this a bit. Saudi is, as you indicate, the most radically conservative of the Muslim countries, which means that it is by no means definitive. In fact, if the Saudis didn't have money they would be persona non grata in most of the rest of the Muslim world where their strict interpretation of Muslim law is not practiced nor appreciated. Bahrain, for example, although a near neighbor is just the opposite. In Bahrain we worshiped in a church downtown that was built by American missionaries next to the "American Mission Hospital" - also part of our church's mission. Our missionary doctors were regular visitors in the palace. The previous emir, who I met on several occasions, was especially close to our mission. In fact, in the early 70s, when he found out that the church didn't have enough money to electrify the building, he paid for it out of his own pocket. I was also there when he put on a lavish celebration for the anniversary of our mission hospital. I also baptized two converts during my time there who lived openly as converts.

You need to know, too, that not all Saudis are happy with the strictness of the faith practiced by some. We had a Saudi attend our church on a fairly regular basis even though he remained Muslim. He was married to a Christian wife and loved being part of the church family. In fact we remain in touch. Our missionary doctors also served as the personal physicians for the Saud family in the early years of the country in full knowledge that they were Christian missionaries.

The point is the situation is far more complex and diverse than many people are aware.
 

Here's an important corrective to Shoebat's invective:

link: http://www.demodirt.com/us-demographic-trends/debunking-muslim-myths090316

Debunking Muslim Myths: American Muslims are diverse, women highly educated, and many politically moderate.


By Galia Myron
March 16, 2009

Gallup’s first national poll of randomly selected Muslims in America revealed that this community is the most racially diverse religious group in the United States, that most consider themselves as religious as many Christians do, and that Muslim women are among the most educated females in the country, earning salaries on par with their male counterparts.

Which ethnic group makes up the largest number of American Muslims? Over one-third of American Muslims are African-American (35 percent), while more than a quarter of Muslims are white (28 percent). Less than one in five is Asian (18 percent), along with other races (18 percent). Most of the other religious groups in America are far less diverse, with 88 percent of Protestants, more than three-quarters of Catholics, 91 percent of Mormons, and 93 percent of Jews listed as white. These numbers indicate that followers of Islam are the most ethnically diverse religious group in the country, Gallup says.

Compared with the general U.S. population, Muslim Americans are more highly educated, second only to Jewish Americans. Slightly more Muslim women report having a college degree or higher (42 percent) than their male counterparts (39 percent), while more than half of Jewish American females (58 percent) and nearly two-thirds of Jewish American males (64 percent) report the same high educational levels as their Muslim cohorts. By contrast, less than a third (29 percent) of overall Americans hold a college degree or higher.

Mormons report the greatest gender discrepancy in terms of education, with 28 percent of women and 35 percent of men holding a college degree or higher, a seven-point difference. Catholics report the lowest gender discrepancy, with a two-point difference, as less than a third of men (30 percent) and 28 percent of women report holding a college degree or higher. However, the gender gap between Muslim men and women is a mere three-point difference, (42 versus 39), a number which challenges sex stereotypes about gender equality.

“The findings go a long way towards dispelling the stereotype about ‘Islam is a religion which oppresses women,’ says author Dilara Hafiz, who co-wrote The American Muslim Teenager’s Handbook, with her two children, Imran and Yasmine.

“While the religion clearly advocates equality of the sexes, sadly, many Muslim-majority countries are unable or unwilling to ensure this equality due to poor governance, socio-economic factors, or cultural interpretation—I have hope that this situation will redress itself as global economic advancement continues to raise standards of living in these countries,” Hafiz tells demo dirt.

Perhaps due to equal educational levels, Muslim American women fare equally as well economically as do their male counterparts, both at the upper and lower income levels. Reported monthly household incomes indicate that among the general U.S. population, about one-third of men (33 percent) make $5,000 or more, compared with about one-quarter of women (24 percent) who report the same, a nine-point difference. On the lower end of the economic spectrum, less than a quarter of women in the general U.S. population report making less than $1,999 a month (22 percent) versus less than one in five men who make the same income (17 percent), a five-point difference.

By contrast, one quarter of Muslim women (25 percent) and the same number of men (25 percent) report a monthly household income of $1,999 or less, while there is only a five-point gender gap at the higher end of the spectrum. About one-third of Muslim American men report a monthly income of $5,000 or more (about the same as the national average for men) and a quarter of Muslim women report the same (25 percent).

What do results stating that Muslim women and men are not only enjoying the same levels of education, but also are on par with one another economically, mean to Muslim Americans? Hafiz says that it means that American Muslim women are far more relatable to their Jewish, Christian, and other peers than previously given credit.

“American Muslim women can certainly be role models for women all over the world—regardless of faith! Education, personal accountability, and social justice are all important elements of Islam which I believe can be applied in productive manners to enhance one’s own economic standing,” she contends.

While gender equality and education are important issues within the young American Muslim community (ages 18 to 29), civic engagement is relatively low, as only half the members of this group are registered to vote (51 percent), while the national average indicates a number closer to two-thirds (65 percent). The number of voter registered American Muslims falls far behind the number of Protestants (78 percent), Jews (73 percent), Mormons (69 percent) and Catholics (56 percent).

Why are young American Muslims seemingly the least civically engaged, and is theirs the only age group that lacks political activity? “First-generation Muslims may be loathe to participate in the election process due to the disillusionment they may have felt towards the political system in their home country—many Muslim majority countries are still struggling to overcome the effects of colonization which led to institutionalized corruption or dubious ‘free’ elections,” Hafiz explains.

Politically, most young American Muslims define themselves as moderate (39 percent), while more than a quarter (28 percent) call themselves liberal or very liberal. Only one in five (20 percent) consider themselves conservative.

“I do believe that over time, American Muslims will fully participate in the US voting process—Islam is fully compatible with the principles of democracy—there is no inherent religious reason which is preventing Muslims from participating, simply inexperience or lack of vision in terms of seeing themselves as a coherent voting bloc,” she says.

Muslims in America are less likely than fellow cohorts to feel that their group is “thriving,” the Gallup poll says. Participants were asked to evaluate their lives as well as their expectations of where they think they will be in five years using a ladder scale with steps numbered from 0 to 10, where "0" indicates the worst possible life and "10" indicates the best possible life. “Thriving” was defined by Gallup as seeing oneself on at least step 7 on the ladder, with an expectation to be on step 8 or higher five years from now.

By this measure, well under half of American Muslims were found to consider themselves thriving in society (41 percent), making this the religious group as the least likely to see themselves this way, even falling below the U.S. general population average (46 percent). More than half of Jews (56 percent) and Mormons (51 percent) see themselves as thriving, followed by Protestants (48 percent) and Catholics (45 percent), with Muslims placing last.

Could this sentiment among American Muslims be connected to the relative lack of civic involvement? Hafiz says that feelings of alienation, isolation, and invisibility are contributing factors.

“One of the challenges facing American Muslims is the simultaneous desire to become fully integrated and accepted into America, while also remaining true to their faith,” Hafiz explains. “They need to engage in more interfaith dialogue in order to counter the rising tide of Islamophobia which is based upon ignorance, and in some cases, malicious misunderstanding of the basics of Islam.”

“Another challenge facing modern American Muslims today is responding to an institutional alienation of Islam in the United States. Firstly, American Muslims must deal with people who claim that Islam is not, in its essence, truly American,” she says. “Muslims have been a presence in the United States of America ever since the country was founded. The other part of this that American Muslims must deal with is ‘immigrant’ Islam, namely, the idea that immigrants from other countries know Islam better than Muslims in the United States.”

While the Muslim community in America is diverse, Hafiz says that the media’s tendency to group all Muslims together and stereotype their political, religious and social views is frustrating and hurtful to many.

“There is so much discussion and diversity within the Muslim community, yet somehow the media tends to portray all Muslims as part of a monolithic group who all hold exactly the same opinions—completely untrue!” she maintains. “I think American Muslims feel both ‘invisible’ in terms of how they see themselves inaccurately portrayed [and] stereotyped by the media, while simultaneously feeling ‘magnified’ in terms of Islam being mentioned so negatively to the exclusion of one’s nationality, professional standing, educational attainments [and so on]—we’re between a rock and a hard place and it’s extremely stressful! Living life on the defensive is wearying.”

Finally, just how devout are Muslims in America? Gallup results indicate that Muslims in the U.S. are as religious as their Christian counterparts: 41 percent of Muslims and Protestants state that they attend their houses of worship once a week, as do 37 percent of Catholic Americans. Of all the religious groups polled, only Mormons were more likely than Muslims to state that religion plays a key role in their everyday lives (85 percent versus 80 percent, respectively); by contrast, only 39 percent of Jews agreed with that statement, as did 65 percent of the general population.

But for Muslims, what does it mean to say that religion plays a key role every day? What tenets of Islam do Muslims observe most and consider being daily connections to the religion? Is it following call to prayer? Is it following halal dietary laws? Is it giving to the poor?

“This poll conclusion is actually the one which I most question, [because] perhaps people of faith don’t want to ‘let their side down’ by admitting that they’re less observant than they want people to think!” Hafiz says. “I think these findings suggest that the central tenet of Islam—the belief in the one God—is certainly a belief which most Muslims would adhere to, regardless of whether they pray regularly or fast during the month of Ramadan [and so on].”

Again, it is difficult to speak for such a diverse group, although there are basic traditions that are generally followed. “There’s a wide variety of observance within the Muslim community, but I think it’s safe to say that most Muslims believe and actively participate in charitable acts and donations, personal prayer, and general avoidance of alcohol and pork consumption,” she adds.

Hafiz also notes that religious identification may be influenced by world events and political situations. “I also believe that if this poll had been taken prior to 9/11, the results would have shown that American Muslims considered themselves less religious than these results,” she says. “9/11 has forced American Muslims to view themselves in terms of their religion because American society [and the] media overwhelmingly focused on the religion of the hijackers rather than their nationality!”

Notably, Gallup states that American Muslim women are as likely as their male peers to attend mosque once a week, while foreign Muslim females are less likely than their male counterparts to do so.

Overall, the Gallup poll indicates that the American Muslim community is diverse, gender equality and education are priorities, and that to feel less alienated, it is important to become more civically engaged. Hafiz hopes that increased education and awareness will eradicate the fear that has been previously associated with the religion.

“Islam is already incorporated into the American culture, as Islam seeks to promote the Abrahamic values of justice, freedom, and equality that America was founded upon,” she explains. “Unfortunately, moderate Muslims have felt ignored or marginalized—it’s not easy to make headlines when your message is peace at a time when people are swayed by fear.”
 

ISCZ - ABC News last night - Iraq and specifically Baghdad, returning to normal for the first time in years – even before the start of the War on Terror. They showed young Iraqi women in western dress, having coffee, shopping, and enjoying the peace brought about by “most” of our men and women of the Armed Forces.

They also showed young Iraqi men turning a vacant lot into a race track. It looked like any-where USA on a Saturday night at the races. All courtesy of the sacrifice of “most” of our men and women of the Armed Forces. Seems President Bush knew what he was doing in ridding the Iraqis of the Stalin-like Saddam Hussein.
 

CW,

I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to convince me that parts of Baghdad are returning to a certain semblance of normalcy. The point I had made earlier was that it is too simplistic to say that Christians are taught to love their enemies while Muslims are taught to kill them. The example I gave about Iraq was that in this case Christians were, in fact, cheering on an unprovoked invasion that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. And this is just one example of many where Christians have, in fact, (against the teaching of Christ - I am a pacifist myself as I believe that is the only way we can truly follow the teaching of Christ) been quite happy to kill their enemies, perceived or otherwise. Iraq is just an example.

Below is a site that has been scrupulously following the body count in Iraq. It may help give you a clearer perspective on the actual situation. You also need to add to this the hundreds of thousands who have felt the need to flee their country, including thousands of Christians who have become the victims of an aggressive form of fundamentalist Shi'a Islam that was not an issue before our invasion and occupation.

Is it a good thing that Saddam Hussayn is gone? Certainly. Was this the best way to get rid of him? That's debatable. But either way it does nothing to challenge the point I was making about seeing this as a simply "either-or" proposition (good Christians/bad Muslims).

Here's the latest body count:

Monday 16 March: 10 dead

Tameem
Kirkuk: gunmen kill security guard at mobile phone company.

Ninewa
Qayareh: 12-year-old girl dies after being shot by US forces firing at speeding car.
Mosul: suicide car bomber kills policeman; gunmen kill woman at bus station.

Diyala
Albu Khumaisa: 5 bodies found.

Wassit
Al Aziziya: 1 body found.


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
 

ISCZ - You're fast with the responses. My last comment was in reference to your opinion of the Gulf War being "unprovoked." If nothing else a Stalin-like regieme that killed its own people was brought to justice. Agree? :)
 

ISCZ - I’m curious since you identified yourself as a “pacifist.” How do you feel about Christians serving in the military?

BTW - We are setting a personal best for number of comments on my blog. :)
 

Yes, when I find a debating partner I don't give up easily :)

Christians in the military? Good question. The early church said it was impossible for a Christian to serve God this way. I think that was extreme. I think in a fallen world the military and police are "necessary evils" - necessary to keep fallen nature from doing more destruction than it would do otherwise. There are good Christian people in the military, and like any other occupation good Christian people are needed.

Let me return this to you. You said that Christians love their enemies while Muslims kill them. Can you give me an example of how this is expressed in a situation of conflict where Christians are involved.

BTW here is an interesting fact: if you add up the number of people killed in the US with guns of all sorts the percentage of Muslim Americans who are among those who find violence an easy way to deal with life is far lower than most any other group. If killing came so easily to Muslims (who Shoebat portrays as naturally inclined to violence) why is this not more readily apparent?

Given choice I would much rather live in a Muslim neighborhood than most any other as I would know that I would be safe. Certainly this was true in the countries where I lived, including Cairo where violence is much less than it is here.

Can you explain that??
 

My last comment was in reference to your opinion of the Gulf War being "unprovoked." If nothing else a Stalin-like regime that killed its own people was brought to justice. Agree? :)

"Unprovoked" = Iraq did not attack us. No Iraqis were among those who attacked the Twin Towers. There is and never was any evidence of collusion between the Iraqis and the killers. The justification for the invasion was Iraq's possession of WMD. There were no WMDs.

Do I agree that a bad regime was removed from power? Sure. But I repeat - at what cost?? Many of our military are beginning to ask the same thing. They are the victims here, as well. When politicians make bad decisions the military suffers most. That is certainly the case here.

Question in return: do you think we have a divine mission to remove every bad regime that exists in the world? Should we invade Zimbabwe, the Congo, the Sudan. . . Russia?

Those who live by the sword die by the sword.
 

ISCZ - I agree with your answer concerning Christians serving in the military.

Let me sleep on your questions and I'll get back to you. Long Elder's meeting tonight. I'm enjoying our conversation. Good night. :)
 

tisba Allah khayr (goodnight in Arabic)
 

Actually I misspelled that. It's "tisba 'ala khair."

I'm interested in the way you reached a conclusion about Walid Shoebat's bonafides. You googled him and noted that there are some questions about his story. Noting that some said he was a fraud, others didn't, your conclusion was that it is inconclusive, therefore it's OK to believe his story.

Imagine if a company veted a prospective employee this way. Well, there is evidence out there that he doesn't actually have an engineering degree, but other people say he does. So I guess its OK to hire him. Can you imagine such a scenario? Yet when an investigative reporter actually goes to the effort to look into Shoebat's background and discovers that his own family can't understand why he's distorting the truth, or that the bank that he supposedly tried to blow up doesn't recall this ever happening, the response is: "well, they could be wrong about that."

Could it be that in this case Shoebat is given credibility because what he says is something you wish to believe?

Much of my reading for my PhD studies has been in the area of the history of Christian-Muslim relations stretching back to the advent of Islam. What's most interesting is evidence of particularly western Christians passing on the most derogatory distorting information they could even when more accurate information was available. In other words there seems to be a need to believe the worst even when it is clear that the worst is not the best explanation for what it is Muslims actually teach and believe.

A good friend and missionary mentor noted to me something about this that I impress upon my audiences when teaching about Islam: "One of the ten commandments is that we don't bear false witness against our neighbors. Whenever we pass on distorted information about our Muslim neighbors we are breaking this commandment."

Something to think about.
 

ISCZ - I haven't forgotten you. From this past Wednesday on, I've had some challenges that are sucking a lot of energy from me.

I do appreciate your zeal and conviction. Too bad we couldn't do lunch somewhere. Do you like BBQ pork? :)

Any way, I'm gone for the weekend. I'll try to answer you last questions next week.

Have a blessed weekend.
 

No problem. I was running out of steam anyway as I'm preparing for my comps - 10,000 pages of reading tested over four days without notes. Doing a PhD is kind of like running a marathon with your brain. I'm in the final three or four miles :)

I'm away at a cabin in the woods next week preparing for this test, so I'll be off line. Lunch sounds good, and yes, the "other white meat" is always good. Its the trip to FLA that is problematical. . . I might just do it if the weather here doesn't stop being winter (freezing again today - Chicago weather is like that).
 

Good luck on your comps. If you don't mind, I'll share your upcoming task with my middle school Algebra students who complain about my tests that I LET THEM use notes on. They don't know how good they have it.

God bless and hopefully you'll get some warmer weather.
 

in sha Allah ("God willing" - a phrase used regularly by Arabs to speak of something hoped for but not certain :)

And do feel free to use the example. My father, by the way, taught math for forty years along with being a high school principal for most of that time. I have a warm spot in my heart for math teachers even though it is not a subject I enjoy . . . (people are far more interesting than numbers . . . )
 

Lunch sounds good to me as well, 5wonderful shawarma’s with roasted chicken, fries, pickle, and a little mayo topped off with Crystal hot sauce! Yummmm!

Michael