Thursday, May 11, 2006
Too Much To Drink
Have you ever had the feeling that you had forgotten “something” and you could not go to sleep until you rectified the doubt in your mind? That has happened to me twice this week.The first time was Tuesday evening around 11:30pm. We had a Camp Meeting in our Fellowship Room earlier that evening. Barb had made coffee for the meeting. Later that night, she woke me up from the beginnings of a nice, sound sleep to ask me if I had turned off the Coffee Maker in the Fellowship Room? I couldn’t remember and neither could she. Being the wonderfully devoted husband (and knowing that there would be no more sleeping that night) that I am, I accepted my “turtle-dove’s” request to make the 20 minute drive back to the building to check on the coffee maker. Sure enough, as I walked into our Fellowship Room, the coffee maker was still on and quite hot. Score one for the home team.
The second time occurred last night in our Elders / Ministers Meeting. Jeff brought up the issue of social drinking among some of our members. We discovered through our conversation that none of us felt the Bible condemned the occasional consumption of alcohol. I think our greatest “discomfort” if you will was the concept of “occasional.” For me personally, I can’t see myself in a leadership (I won’t use the “E” word Randy) role being out with some of the guys from church and enjoying “a cold one” with my wings. Would I condemn it if one of our members did as such with respect to moderation, no, at least I don’t think I would openly. But for some reason, I can’t get past it (and wonder if I need to) when it comes to me.
I guess that’s the second time, I can’t remember where I got this aversion to alcohol with respect to my church family but I have it. Intellectually I understand the Bible doesn’t prohibit the consumption of alcohol in moderation. But if I’m with the guys from church and one of them orders a “bru-ski,” I know on an emotional level I will be at the very least, distracted.
Is this an issue for anyone else out there or your church? How are you articulating (if you have or need to) the Biblical position on drinking alcohol?
Feel free to “wine” and dine me with your opinion.
Comments:
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Bro,
I just had this discussion with one of our deacons on Tuesday. He had somebody from church talking with him about drinking wine and he basically shared the same ideas you've mentioned about moderation. Having spent a lot of my life with football coaches, I have found that there are actually people who enjoy drinking a beer or a glass of wine and who loved Jesus very much. Imagine that . . . as I recall Jesus was perhaps the best winemaker who ever lived.
Peace.
I just had this discussion with one of our deacons on Tuesday. He had somebody from church talking with him about drinking wine and he basically shared the same ideas you've mentioned about moderation. Having spent a lot of my life with football coaches, I have found that there are actually people who enjoy drinking a beer or a glass of wine and who loved Jesus very much. Imagine that . . . as I recall Jesus was perhaps the best winemaker who ever lived.
Peace.
Judy - I certainly understand why you would feel that way in light of what you been through. I also think I'm kind of in the same boat that you are as far as not seeing the Bible condemn what we've discussed but nevertheless wanting to still impose some restrictions because of my comfort zone.
I do think we've all witnessed the same pattern (An acknowledgement of no Biblical precedent but a continuation of restrictions) with respect to such issues as clapping and Praise Teams to name a few. No doubt, this is a tough one.
Greg - You mentioned another aspect of this that was on my mind. How do we tell our children / teens to not consume alcohol if I'm doing the same? Are we having fun yet?
Puckster - Good points and thus my consternation about this subject.
I do think we've all witnessed the same pattern (An acknowledgement of no Biblical precedent but a continuation of restrictions) with respect to such issues as clapping and Praise Teams to name a few. No doubt, this is a tough one.
Greg - You mentioned another aspect of this that was on my mind. How do we tell our children / teens to not consume alcohol if I'm doing the same? Are we having fun yet?
Puckster - Good points and thus my consternation about this subject.
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
Let them drink and forget their poverty,
and remember their misery no more (Proverbs 31.6-7).
I admit, there are more good arguments against consumption than for consumption. I still enjoy a good wine or a cold beer.
and wine to those in bitter distress;
Let them drink and forget their poverty,
and remember their misery no more (Proverbs 31.6-7).
I admit, there are more good arguments against consumption than for consumption. I still enjoy a good wine or a cold beer.
Randy - Preaching against chocolate! As a relative of mind was fond of saying about some sermons, "Now he's gone to meddling."
Your point about where one is raised is one of those things I'm trying to work out in my own mind. Although our church is located in a "southern state," being located near the Space Center and Patrick AFB brings a diverse group of people with different backgrounds into our area and ultimatly into our church.
Your point about where one is raised is one of those things I'm trying to work out in my own mind. Although our church is located in a "southern state," being located near the Space Center and Patrick AFB brings a diverse group of people with different backgrounds into our area and ultimatly into our church.
The "if it makes your brother stumble" principle applies here, I believe. My wife and I make it a point to never indulge when in a 30 mile radius of our church. But on vacation, or at Mom's, one or two glasses of wine may be enjoyed.
On the theological level I'd probably walk pretty close to where you are, but when I think about it on a personal level, I have a difficult time justifying it for any Christian to be a part of. I grew up in a drinking family, my parents were always drinkers and in their later years were functional alcoholics. The smell of beer is just nauseating to me and I don't see how anyone develops a taste for hard liquor - it's not something you would just naturally be attracted to. So, perhaps the Bible has a more moderate view of drinking, but I'll have to plead a legalistic abhorance of it. And when it comes to influence - I can't imagine how a Christian adult could tell a teen to stay away from alcohol and drugs while using it themselves.
Sorry for my soapbox.
Sorry for my soapbox.
John - I was on the same "soapbox" last night was I walked with our neighbor who also is a fellow Christian.
During our conversation I was wrestling with 2 points:
1. Alcohol has the ability to alter one's state of mind. I have a hard time getting away from that aspect.
2. No doubt someone could make the same argument concerning caffine and sugar.
Everyone - I appreciate your input on this subject.
During our conversation I was wrestling with 2 points:
1. Alcohol has the ability to alter one's state of mind. I have a hard time getting away from that aspect.
2. No doubt someone could make the same argument concerning caffine and sugar.
Everyone - I appreciate your input on this subject.
There are certainly times and circumstances under which it is inappropriate to have a drink. If you are around someone who struggles with alcohol...if you are with people who feel it is a sin (I hang out with very few of those folks)...if you are in a situation that might lead you to overindulge. But it is certainly not wrong. "All things in moderation" makes a great deal of sense and, whether we like it or not, it does apply to food (and gambling and television and many other areas of life).
I have never acquired a taste for wine or beer. But there are mixed drinks that are very tasty. And I don't say that to sidestep the issue of an altered state of mind. In fact, I think one of the reasons that a small amount of alcohol is actually recommended is its ability to help a person de-stress.
Of course, as will become apparent in current and future blogs, my views aren't exactly mainstream CofC.
I have never acquired a taste for wine or beer. But there are mixed drinks that are very tasty. And I don't say that to sidestep the issue of an altered state of mind. In fact, I think one of the reasons that a small amount of alcohol is actually recommended is its ability to help a person de-stress.
Of course, as will become apparent in current and future blogs, my views aren't exactly mainstream CofC.
Wine. Beer. Alcohol. These are "issues" only depending on the location and time of the people thinking about.
Location: Living in the "Bible Belt" for many years I learned about "dry counties" and such. Moving away to New Orleans first and later Milwaukee I quickly learned just how "cultural" an issue this is. Most of the members of the congregation I preached for in New Orleans had at least one bottle of wine and probably rum too. In Milwaukee the chairperson of the "search" committee that hired me was an executive at Miller Brewing.
Time: Yes, Time. The issue of total abstinence from wine, beer, etc is a modern one. Many folks mores have been fashioned by something called the "Temperance Movement." But historically even the Puritans drank beer. Luther drank beer. Alexander Campbell drank wine and brandy . . . and you know what so did Jesus!
Romans 14 specifically addresses the issue of wine (vv. 17, 21). What "kind" of drinking might one have a problem with? Not water! The issue is ascetism and Paul rightly rejects.
Wine is often in the Hebrew Bible associated with blessings from God. Therefore I cannot make drinking wind or a beer sinful or even "negative." What is wrong is the abuse of God's good gifts. This abuse can be done with sex and I don't see anyone crusading to eradicate sex in its proper place. This happens with food . . . and the Bible is just as hard on gluttony as it is drunkenness.
Just my thoughts,
Bobby Valentine
Location: Living in the "Bible Belt" for many years I learned about "dry counties" and such. Moving away to New Orleans first and later Milwaukee I quickly learned just how "cultural" an issue this is. Most of the members of the congregation I preached for in New Orleans had at least one bottle of wine and probably rum too. In Milwaukee the chairperson of the "search" committee that hired me was an executive at Miller Brewing.
Time: Yes, Time. The issue of total abstinence from wine, beer, etc is a modern one. Many folks mores have been fashioned by something called the "Temperance Movement." But historically even the Puritans drank beer. Luther drank beer. Alexander Campbell drank wine and brandy . . . and you know what so did Jesus!
Romans 14 specifically addresses the issue of wine (vv. 17, 21). What "kind" of drinking might one have a problem with? Not water! The issue is ascetism and Paul rightly rejects.
Wine is often in the Hebrew Bible associated with blessings from God. Therefore I cannot make drinking wind or a beer sinful or even "negative." What is wrong is the abuse of God's good gifts. This abuse can be done with sex and I don't see anyone crusading to eradicate sex in its proper place. This happens with food . . . and the Bible is just as hard on gluttony as it is drunkenness.
Just my thoughts,
Bobby Valentine
I take the politcal stance. I agree with everyone on this blog.
Not trying to be goofy, but everyone writing here has a good point.
I too had people in my family who were alcoholics. But I do not think you can prove it to be wrong in blanket statements. I challenge my kids to never touch it and always show them the bad side of it. I figure this is an issue to be on the huge side of caution about.
Remember that in the world we live in there are too many other choices for us to be encouraging any kind of drinking.
After saying that, I need to say that in order for us to be missionally minded, we are going to have to get into the lives of the people who do "social drink" as well as those who don't in order for us to be Jesus in their world.
I hope this is not too much rambling. I don't want to make a big urcfna out of myself!!
Not trying to be goofy, but everyone writing here has a good point.
I too had people in my family who were alcoholics. But I do not think you can prove it to be wrong in blanket statements. I challenge my kids to never touch it and always show them the bad side of it. I figure this is an issue to be on the huge side of caution about.
Remember that in the world we live in there are too many other choices for us to be encouraging any kind of drinking.
After saying that, I need to say that in order for us to be missionally minded, we are going to have to get into the lives of the people who do "social drink" as well as those who don't in order for us to be Jesus in their world.
I hope this is not too much rambling. I don't want to make a big urcfna out of myself!!
Brothers and Sister - Thank you so much for giving me some valuable input on this subject.
Steve - I never considered the benefits (and I'm not being sarcastic) of "de-stressing" with alcohol but you make a good point, especially give the make up of our very stress-ful lives and world. I always viewed the "mind-altering" effects of alcohol and someone using it as a "weakness." A leftover from my up-bringing / pull yourself up by your on boot-straps teaching.
Bobby - I didn't take into consideration the differences of "culture" within our own country. Thanks for the historical perspective on our "church fathers" as well.
Keith - You hit on my weak point with all of this - trying to be consistent with my son and our kids.
Thanks again everyone.
Steve - I never considered the benefits (and I'm not being sarcastic) of "de-stressing" with alcohol but you make a good point, especially give the make up of our very stress-ful lives and world. I always viewed the "mind-altering" effects of alcohol and someone using it as a "weakness." A leftover from my up-bringing / pull yourself up by your on boot-straps teaching.
Bobby - I didn't take into consideration the differences of "culture" within our own country. Thanks for the historical perspective on our "church fathers" as well.
Keith - You hit on my weak point with all of this - trying to be consistent with my son and our kids.
Thanks again everyone.
Bro,
Can you get the beer mug off this page? I've already drunk it.
Check your mail for updated camp note.
Peace
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Can you get the beer mug off this page? I've already drunk it.
Check your mail for updated camp note.
Peace
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